There is a funny phenomenon I sometimes experience in my interactions with cis men.
In our early conversations, it is clear that they are fully prepared for me to come at them and call them sexist and racist right out the gate. They are almost pre-apologizing for their lack of knowledge and any potentially fumbling they might engage in.
Some of this is a function of my role. People either know me from my podcast or I’ve been hired to work with them to do trainings on topics of gender, race, privilege and oppression, or sexual harassment. Either way, my job is to lead folks to a space where we can have these conversations. And I know that if I “say it in a mean way,” that can’t happen.
Sometimes men tell me this outright— but frequently, I get feedback that they thought prior to our work together, they’d anticipated that I would be accusatory and that they were pleasantly surprised when I wasn’t. I get a lot of comments about how I’m easy to talk to or able to manage difficult conversations or something similar.
If you’ve met me, I think you’ve probably come to the realization that I try to talk to people in a way that is kind and engaging. That is something I strive for in work situations and beyond.
But, I want to be crystal clear that I am not allowing folks to “get away with” things in my trainings. I am clear on what is acceptable behavior and what isn’t. But I don’t think that in my particular role coming in with guns blazing is a helpful approach either.
However, in order to do this work, a few potentially contradictory things need to happen at once— it’s a difficult dance:
Ideally, I shouldn’t have to be nice for you to listen to me; this hits at the concept of tone-policing, which is when someone discounts what someone is saying because they “could have said it nicer”— this is usually someone from an oppressed group, and often a woman of color. Of course, if I am working with a group, the dynamic is slightly different, but that’s important to note that. Usually, when someone says something in a way that isn’t immediately palatable, they’re saying it that way because no one has been listening to them when they did try to “say it nice.”
On the other hand, I do try to understand where folks are coming from— we’re all at a different place in our journey. I’ve had to do a lot of work to get to where I am (and I will always have further to go), but I know others are just starting, and I want to work with them wherever they are. And in many cases, people’s life circumstances keep them from having to have had these conversations or learnings earlier. Should they have sought them out sooner? Yes. But we can’t change that now and we have to start where folks are.
People want to think of themselves as good people, so they are threatened when they think someone is going to call them racist or sexist, or otherwise “bad.”
But, if you aren’t uncomfortable, it’s not working. If you’ve ever lifted weights you know that feeling of soreness a day or two later tells you that it “worked.” The same thing is true here. If you don’t challenge yourself at all in these settings and the conversations are so simplistic that you don’t see a need for change, then it’s not working. The problem comes when people are so threatened by the conversation that they shut don’t and won’t even go there at all. My job is to help them move through that discomfort— the guilt, shame, or loss— as leaning into that isn’t going to be productive.
I realize that in many ways, for a mostly white, cisgender company, as a white cisgender woman who is married to a cis man, I am basically the least threatening person to do this potentially threatening work.
I can take that on and help folks get comfortable with discomfort and having hard conversations around gender and race, and then, ideally, they move on and work with a person of color or trans person, for example— someone who can speak to the nuances and lived experiences of folks better because they aren’t blinded by privilege in the way that I am.
As a general rule in my life, I try to engage in perspective-taking, and I think it’s really the best way to interact with other people. And I do this with the white cis, heterosexual men that I interact with, too. But, in my personal life, I will do this only so far if I, or others, are treated unfairly.
So, to the men out there, it would be awesome if you could also engage in perspective-taking. If folks are constantly thinking about and attending to your lived experiences and you aren’t thinking about theirs, that puts a lot more work on them, especially in a societal arrangement where that is expected.
This is also an emotional intelligence skill that will benefit you in your work life and in your personal life. The effort you put in will come back to you and it is also the right thing to do. Learn about others— through conversations, movies, books, or podcasts, get uncomfortable, and be okay with being challenged by folks who are different from you.